Permalink Reply by Santokh Singh Aug 30

From your valuable explanations, including Gurmit and Toniji, I am still unsing my mind to analyse this:
It is beyond the grasp of the mind to understand God. But we still use mind to do Jaap, to remind ourselves the goal at hand. Therefore, (still using my mind) Jaap is like using rocket fuel up to a certain extent beyond which it has no purpose.
(Please don't use scholastic approach, I don't need it). If we are going to travel light on this road to realization, then let's discuss the steps where we throw away the excess baggage.

Kindly continue. I do understand that it becomes harder to explain it in words. Use sign language if you need to. But talking about all this isn't the same as achieving it because mind is still at play here.

Humble request to continue discussion by hints, nudges or Gurbani.

Permalink Reply by Amrjit Singh Bandeshe Aug 30

Thanks, ToniJi and Gurmit Bhai Sahib for your posts. You have succesfully relieved my thoughts-bottleneck by saying as follows :

And the image that came to me was a counter-image - the calf seeking the gaze of its mother. - Toni Ji
and
The purpose of simran is to go beyond the mind ... Feeling is the key. - Gurmit Ji

It appears to me, now, that going beyond the mind is vital to a true-seeker, like Santokh Bhai Sahib, wanting to immerse in The Naam daily in life.

Yes, JAP is the necessary rocket fuel that will cause the sublimation into the State of FEELING which is of the utmost importance as Guru Gobind Singh Ji's exhortation "Saach kaho, suun leyo sabhey, Jin PREM kio, tin he prabh payoh" !

The feeling of PREM, (LOVE) is paramount in bringing about the yearning, longing, pining state of GAZE by a calf from its mother !

Thus, permit me to say that we cannot perceptualise, visualise or conceptualise Naam using our Mind, exactly as Santokh Ji says.

But we can, or may, FEEL the forlorn-gaze state of Naam which then is none other than us at our true divine state of Origin !!

Consider these Gurbani verses:

Halat sukh palat sukh, nit sukh simarno, Naam Gobind ka sada leejyeh ... Panna 683

Utter the Name of Gobind always ...

Kirat prabh ki, gao meri Rasnah ... Panna 1298

O my tongue sing the manifest splendour of Prabhu, Parmaatma ...

I shall upload the Gurmukhi versions shortly after this ...

Fundamentally, to cause the onset of Naam or remembrance of our Divine Origin, requires the rocket fuel of reiterative Jap with our tongues to launch into the inconceivable Naam awastha through Feeling.

The veil of mind-pictures will have to be given up for the rest of the journey into and through feeling and LOVE... as Gurmit Ji has said.

I hope Santokh Ji this is not too scholastic, but if it is please ignore ...

Cheers !

Amrjit

Permalink Reply by gurmit singh Aug 30

Toni ji
I had written above a quote from Guru Gobind Singh ji's bani

"JIN PREM KYOO TIN HI PRABH PAYOO"
( Only those who love meet GOD )

Your intuits written above also refer to feelings - a relationship of love

gurmit

Permalink Reply by Amrjit Singh Bandeshe Aug 30

Toni Ji, Gurmit Ji, Santokh Ji,

Here are the Gurmukhi versions of the quoted verses in my post above :

[SGGS - Panna 683]

[SGGS - Panna 1298]

[SGGS - Panna 1298]

[SGGS - Panna 211]

Chanting, or uttering with the tongue, seems to be a fundamental requirement in our flight towards Naam !

Click on images above to enlarge if required.

Amrjit

Permalink Reply by Santokh Singh Aug 30

I need to review all that has been said but not fully understood by me. I seem to have the habit of narrowing down everything into a concentrated box. What a fool I am, trying to fit natures wonders into a box. Gurmit Singh Ji, you too have profound wisdom. And Toniji, your 'half-baked' concepts make more sense than my rocket-fuel theory.
My, my, I have so much to digest now.

Permalink Reply by Amrjit Singh Bandeshe Aug 30

I love you all the more for your candour, Mere veer Santokh Singh Ji :)

Cheers

Amrjit

PS Any theory, be it rocket-fuel, or otherwise, is always welcome, for it may suddenly become relevant to our conversation, even if 'half-baked' also (lol) :)

Permalink Reply by Amrjit Singh Bandeshe Aug 30

Santokh Singh Ji,

BTW, do you have a Skype ID ? Mine is amrjit@iee.org

Amrjit

Permalink Reply by Antonia Donofrio Aug 30

Dear friends

I am in the same place. This entire thread is complex. For me each person's comments need to be contemplated carefully several times. There is so much here. Santokh I understand what you have said about hints and nudges -- my understanding, if it is understanding, comes in flashes that are emotional and sudden. Then the scholarly part makes more sense -- only afterward -- and it then enriches my perspective. Both are important -- but isn't it strange that the experience has to come first?

Still behind in my discipline. Apologies.

toniji

Permalink Reply by gurmit singh Aug 31

WJKK WJKF

The problem arises when we try to interpret and fit in gurbani's meanings and promptings in this world of form and to conform to our general experience of this world.

An example are these words of Guru Gobind Singh ji

"If you desire to play this game of love , then step onto My Path with your head in hand. "
- SGGS 1412

When connected with this world these words are used to describe the scene when Guru Sahebji asked for Heads on Beisakhi Day. Also a state without fear.
But the spirtual meaning is that
" when steping on the path the minds doubts and arguments are to be given up.We surrender our this part of mind .We accept Gurus directions and statements. "

Similarly with regard to JAP and SIMRAN.
Both of these are connected with different levels of us.
Jap is done with the tongue.
Simran is done in the antehkaran. Simran goes beyond mind.
Jap is done to cross the viel of mental chatter.
As we close our eyes we first encounter darkness. This is the darkness caused by the minds energy.Otherwise we are Jyote Swaroop . When through jap we move inward by listening to jap with our inner ears.
The next step is Simran.

The words of gurbani have different meanings at different levels.
Our first step further inwarrd is to accept that we are not a mere physical form with mind and divine spark which only is letting us live.
The truth is divine spark is a part of us and actively involved in our daily life as well.

gurmit

Permalink Reply by Santokh Singh Sep 1

There might be mixed feelings about this short story which I created as a fiction. Please feel free to comment on it.
Let me take you through a journey. You are at home in Sach Khand. There is no difference between you and God as you are one. There are no concepts, no questions, no dharma, no explanations because there is no mind.

Suddenly I realized there was motion, I have an identity, I realized many things. I was not alone in this motion, I was travelling. There was darkness for the first time. Telepathy was a language easy to learn. Communication started amongst all of us.

This darkness was Mansarover. There was vision and I realized those around me visioned this dream world differently from each other. Far away from my home, now in an alien land, getting used to it was education.

I had put on a skin that communicated with all lights at the same time.
Whatever I thought, every light knew my thoughts. We were all small lights. A thought-form reminded us that we are not small lights, each of us shine equivalent to the radiance of a thousand suns and our beauty is like a hundred moon lights. This skin was the Universal Mind. As more thought-forms were received, the skin became thicker. This was the mind forming its lower attributes and I became conscious of myself as an individual.

Part of the thought-forms transmitted to me were "get ready for the MEST worlds, it is going to get tough and rough." I did not know what MEST was until it came. The journey still continued and a heavy garment got attached to me, it started communicating to me by saying, "I will be part of you, I will never leave your side, I am here to protect you, so let me take control of things from here onwards, I will keep updating you with every emotion. I felt heavy and tried to get rid of it. But it said, "it is for your own good." It was the emotional body talking to me.

When I left Mansarover, which is also known as the land of a thousand suns, emotional body took most of the beating from the courser vibrations of the MEST world.
Some of the pounding was so strong that I felt no difference between emotions and myself. The journey was dark, at least Mansarover was bright compared to this place. It is called Tribitch. The celestial sound current pulls your attention. Sounds like a hydro fall. This sound is like the banister. Many use it to travel faster.

What is this place ? I asked my companions. They said, "realm of Matter, Energy, Space and Time - MEST. Those dim lamps are the splinters of a nebula, but they will become very bright when we wear a magnifying suit known as a physical body.

At that time I felt journey-sick and longed to go home. Where are we going, I cried. Reply came - to school. What is a school ? Our conversation was interrupted by a jolt and it was a roller coaster ride, feelings burst out into so many types of emotions in six directions, each creating a different sound and then I had to slip into this magnifying suit. It jump started all by itself with the primary audiable emotion. I felt like I was in the driver's seat where everything was running on automation.

After all these years, I have faint memories of my home. I long to go home. These are the pangs of separation from my sweet home.

.................................................. .................................................. ...

The end. Want another story? Can't think of any right now.