Page 07 --- The Naam Discussion Forum --- Universal Mind

Reply by Antonia Donofrio Sep 8

There are studies that describe increases in alpha wave activity -- often followed by feelings of greater physical and mental energy, optimism and enjoyment of life. Other research describes episodes of theta wave activity not unlike the experience of driving for a long time on an open highway, with many images floating through consciousness, and the periodic sense that one does not know where one has been, what one has seen pass by, or how much time has passed. The mental state associated with increases in theta wave activity are likened to deep relaxation.

"A person who is driving on a freeway, and discovers that they can't recall the last five miles, is often in a theta state - induced by the process of freeway driving. This can also occur in the shower or tub or even while shaving or brushing your hair. It is a state where tasks become so automatic that you can mentally disengage from them. The ideation that can take place during the theta state is often free flow and occurs without censorship or guilt. It is typically a very positive mental state."

also from www.crystalinks.com/medbrain.html

Reply by Antonia Donofrio Sep 8

Respected friends

I left my earlier comments in place for few hours so I could think about their implications. In another discussion I expressed concern that the search for correlates between science and enlightenment could lead to science over-taking religious truth, and awareness of God would be lost thereby. Scientific reductionism becomes a problem when thinking about brain waves as correlates of the shabd guru experience.

The location and frequency of brain wave activity is material and real. The shifts of awareness reported during meditation (accompanied by increased theta wave activity) can be explained as nothing more than lowered levels of activity in the parietal lobes. The reported sense of being In Nothing or Nothingness -- timelessness, formlessness, and loss of spatial location -- are indicators of lower activation in the parietal lobes. Energy has been shifted to other places in the brain -- and thus the sense of time and space are lost..There is no scientific reason to suspect that something spiritual has occurred.

The change in consciousness is very real, but it is only physiological in nature. The sense of emptiness is not necessarily a spiritual awareness or of divine origin. Anything imaged during those periods are not necessarily divine in their source or connection.

Science and spirit? A slippery slope. Scientific materialism will always win the game of logic and inference. So understanding should not even for a second look to science for explanatory power. The felt sense of the Divine, the encounter with the Divine, these are intuitive, personal, and charismatic. Rather than imbue awareness of God with scientific wonder, the chances are that science will explain God away. Yes, science can make us aware of phenomena that intensify our belief in God. But that is about all Science can do for Spirit.

Science and Religion are not epistemologically compatible. The one does not complement the other's definition of truth. Cosmos as God's creation, the Universe as God's creation, celestial mechanics as God's hukam are not scientific awarenesses. From a spiritual vantage point, Science is the content. God is the Designer. Devotion in its many forms is the protocol.

D.E. Suzuki says that satori occurs when one leaves samadhi. And therefore, one must make the effort to rise from samadhi in order to experience satori, in order to understand what happens in samadhi. My tendency at this point is to think about these words. To ask, What consciousness takes us to a deeper awareness of the changes in consciousness that are real and are possible.

Or there is something I am missing?

Reply by gurmit singh Sep 10

Toniji
You have beautifully explained the relationship between science and spirtuality and limitations of science.Although logic had been on the side of science but science is also evolving.It is now physics of consciousness or may even be biology of consciousness.
I view it differently.
Science is another way/path of approaching the Limitless.It may appear more circuitous but is an experience anyway.An involved scientist is similarly stuck by the Wonder.
An argument against existance of GOD spurs others to explain it.
Science may even develop a new branch to describe/explain divine experience .So be it.
Even without science we have enough of materialists.
There are a large number who are unaware of any scientific argument but are even more misdirected.Throughout history the number of persons with divine experiences has been less.

It is now being said that no of spirtual persons is increasing and once critical mass of 5% comes about the world will shift to next stage.
The divine experiences of even higher order may then come about.Some which are now uncommen may become common.

The tables we use are to assist in the progression.The tables give or clarify a direction only. The divine experiences we have are a grace.The are because of Kirpa and Nadar.
These experiences affect the physical body as well.In no way the theta or delta brain waves induced by scienctific means like through special musical sound tracks can bring about divine experience. The only thing these can do is to bring about health benifits or assist a devout in his spirtual practice in a way that a mala or drums etc do at present.
Science will accordingly be there to asist only.

gurmit

Reply by gurmit singh Sep 10

Surt Shabad abhyas as a spirtual practice is less known.The concept of Shabad Guru is even not known clearly to many sikhs let alone the Shabad we hear internally.

Let me narrate an incident. It happened in the year 1991.An audit team visited our office and the clerk who was spirtually oriented had extensive discussions with me.
He was regular meditator and folowwed some known spirtual gurus then.
He told me that he hears shabd indge as a Hum when in a silent place.
No one was able to explain it as none of his spirtual guides were aware of it.
I did had divine experiences but had not yet gone for shabad -surt abhyas.The very next day in my meditation the shabad was there.
I then asked hoim to stugy SGGSji s bani for guidance.
Many othes also are hearing the shabad and are unaware as to what it is .Recently i had a short talk with a person from British Columbia who is living near to nature in a small community.When asked he also stated that the sound is there as a Hum.

Much of my awareness of shabd has come from the explanations by Sant Baba Surain Singh written by Pritpal singh.

Baba Surain Singh a student of Khalsa College Amritsar had done the abhyas from college days.

gurmit

Reply by Antonia Donofrio Sep 11

Gurmit ji

Your explanation of shabd surt abhyas makes me hopeful. And, yes you are right, we have had enough of materialists. Only I hope that your optimism is correct -- that science will be there to assist. And it is good to have companions who can think about topics of importance and do this by crossing so many dimensions of thinking.

toniji

Reply by Amrjit Singh Bandeshe Sep 11

Gurmit Ji

These questions may seem silly. But I thought I'll still ask so as to clarify and be more sure.

Is the 'sound' heard with the 'internal ears' anywhere near the 'ssaaannn ... ' sound that can be heard through a conch and how is it different from the sound of medical tinnitus ? Could such 'naad' or 'anhat naad' sound also be heard as being similar to that we hear when we place the open end of an empty vessel (eg. a drinking glass, cup and so on) on top to cover our ear(s) ?

Are we also to hear a kind of tinking (tintinnabulation) as well ...

If these questions are irrelevant, I'll be grateful if you would please elaborate as to what kinds of sound parallels are we to hear for Naad and Anhad Shabd ?

Many thanks

Amrjit

Reply by Antonia Donofrio Sep 11

Amrjit,

I too have a question that is posed in the most bashful way.

The only reason we hear anything as a general rule is because of the mechanics of the ear - hammer strikes ear drum. Patterns of frequencies and amplitudes vary to make a variety of sounds "hearable" and then our brain decodes this information and we say we have "heard" our name, or a siren, or a song.

My question - could it be then that we are not hearing anything that is physically real when thinking of Naad or Anhad Shabd ? But rather are hearing metaphorically - as when the memory of a sound, say a song, is playing in mind and memory. Except, in the case of Naad and Anhad Shabd there would be no "memory" or trace of any sound lingering from our actual experience in the material world.

Things get tricky - because if I take too much aspirin, I hear a buzzing, but it is a neurological response, a temporary tinnitus and not the unstruck meolody.

Or is this possible explanation obvious to everyone except me?
toniji

Reply by Amrjit Singh Bandeshe Sep 11

ToniJi

Pending Gurmit Ji's advise, I tend to agree with the truth you mention that Naadic and Anhad Shabd 'sound' is not 'hearable' in the ordinary physio-neurological way. Memories of sound (eg song) I understand, are, biochemicals stored in our brain pathways, being released appropriately on 'recall' and yield the sensation of the memory of a 'song' and so on ...

He told me that he hears shabd indge as a Hum when in a silent place.


Gurmit posted the above in his earlier post and I became acutely curious that 'tinnitus' may be the conch-sound of of void drone that may draw a parrallel to the Naad and Anhat Shabd in essence. Perhaps "wrongly" dismissed outright as tinnitus (even when not so). You said quite rightly :

Things get tricky - because if I take too much aspirin, I hear a buzzing, but it is a neurological response, a temporary tinnitus and not the unstruck meolody.

Amrjit

Reply by Antonia Donofrio Sep 11

Amrjit

Good plan -- because I think Gurmit can explain in detail.

toniji

Reply by gurmit singh Sep 11

Toniji and Amarjitji

What is heard is not near the ears but in the head . The sound is just there and does not appear to come from anywhere. The sound of a diseased ear is different and is one knows it is the ear.Here it is in the head and when the awareness is kept in the soung the same then appears to fill the whole head as if amplified.
We are acustomed to separation between objects and this is the reason difficulty comes in acceptance that within the same space occupied by matter is the subtle realm. The surt is able to touch these realms.
The Gurbani says :

It is said that there is different sound in the shabad for the five elements : Air ,fire , earth .sky, and water. as shabad is the origin of these.
And also that as the surt becomes more subtle the shabad becomes more and more pleasant.The shabad has light also and this is the reason we have experiences where divine light is seen.
Our experiences at these stages are as per our beliefs in the Muun.
When we expect sound we will definitly hear it otherwise it is not heard.
This is also the reason there is difference in spirtual experiences among persons of different religions.

gurmit